talkFestool  

Go Back   talkFestool > Manufacturers & Vendors of Fine Tools > Tools from Japan

Tools from Japan All about tools from Japan, whatever they may be…

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 08-28-2011, 03:15 PM
Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Kagawa, Japan.
Posts: 74
Default Re: A little sharpening set anyone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Okami View Post
Yep that's why I want this set
I think there's quite a few Shapton users here, how would these compare to the same grit shaptons?

Stu, please let me know how I should go about putting an order in, and making payment...I'm looking forward to having a go with these
How do they compare to Shapton Professional or Glass Stones?

How do I do this without alienating the Shapton users?

To start, the Sigmas in this set work out to be cheap, ridiculously cheap. I sell Shapton too, and my prices are 'competitive', but throwing in an Atoma as well with the Sigmas? Not playing fair, am I?

Compared to Glass Stones first then.

The Sigma are faster, at each step. They generally stay flatter and don't flex. The abrasive is 5 times thicker, and wears at a similar or slower rate than the Glass Stones. While the #16000 GS will put an edge on a blade that's better than almost anything out there (including anything from Naniwa, King, Bester/Imanishi, Shapton, Sigma, etc.), there is one stone that will put a better final edge on a blade, and it's the Sigma #13000. I can back that up, and don't get me wrong, the #16000 GS puts an amazing edge on steel. If you've not used one, you have no idea.

However, getting the edge out of the GS #16K takes some effort. Freehanding a wide bevel is nearly impossible. Microbevels are ok, narrow bevels are fine. But wide bevels, the blade will aquaplane then bite and it's just a pain. Creating mud on the stone and leaving it in place helps a lot. Being super careful with water can help. Using a honing guide will allow you to work a wide bevel. But it's not as simple or as easy as it should be.

By contrast, the Sigma #13000 is finer in grit (0.74 micron vs. 0.94 micron 16K GS), is slightly porous so freehanding a blade is easy and smooth. The Sigma cuts as quickly or quicker and stays very flat.

So, even with the best edge available for a reasonable sum from Shapton, the Sigma makes stuff sharper, easier and does it for longer.

Shapton Pro are, I think, the better stones to use of from Shapton. At 1K the Sigma and Shapton duke it out for 'the best' I think. The Shapton stays slightly flatter (talking less than 5% here, imperceptible normally), is quicker to prepare for use and cuts very quickly. The Sigma stays nearly as flat, takes a little longer to get ready (soaking) cuts almost as fast (sometimes faster) but again does a better job of it (smoother, finer finish) and does it easier, for longer. At 1K, for general tool sharpening, you can't go wrong with either.

That better finish allows the Sigma 6K an easier task, but it doesn't need it. Anyone who's used a Shapton Pro 5K for any extent knows it tends to clog a bit (unless soaked, which reduces but doesn't eliminate clogging) and leaves a smooth, but not really sharp edge. The Shapton 5K isn't bad, but it's completely outclassed by the Sigma (and the Chosera too while we're here) since the Sigma stays flatter, cuts as fast or faster, is quicker to soak (yes, the Shapton 5K should be soaked for 10 minutes. The Sigma needs 2-4), clogs less and will leave a polished bevel that's sharp enough for most tasks. And I prefer the Chosera 5K in use because it's really nice and 'gutsy', but it's always before the Sigma because the Sigma leaves a better edge, a much better edge.

The 13K, more of the same, except that the difference in use is less (the Shapton 12K isn't bad, when soaked) but the difference in the edge is far greater. And the Sigma tends to be faster as well.

Through all this, yes the Sigma need soaking. Not much, but they really do need it. The trade off is they're nicer to use and they're more flexible in how they work. Clean, with slurry, dry, wet, etc.

Now, don't get me wrong. If you've got Shaptons and you're happy with them, stick with them. They're good stones and they're known to be high quality and reliable. The problem for me is that the Sigma Power ceramic are not so well known, and I need to change that, hence 'the set'.

But, and this is a personal thing, every time I drag out my Shaptons (I've got 3 sets, 120-1000-5000-12000 in Pro and M series, 120-320-1000-4000-8000-16000 in Glass) I keep looking at them and wondering why anyone puts up with them. Using a honing guide means they all 'just work', but I tend to touch up and do Japanese blades free handed, and the Shaptons tend to be a PITA at times (although the #1000 Glass is really nice) and I can't like them, because I do have those Sigmas just sitting there.

Why deal with annoying stones if I don't have to?

Which is why my 'every day' stones are 'the set'.

The short version is that I can see why folks like whatever stones they have. I know, I've got them too and find good points in nearly every stone. It's just that when everything is taken into account, all stones have warts in one way or another but the Sigma ceramic have small warts, and not many of them.


Does that help? I know I get long winded, but I don't like to skip the details.

Also know that this is my experience, and not everyone agrees with me.

Okami, shoot me an email or PM and I'll get the details sorted out.

Stu.
__________________
The Tools from Japan blog and Tools from Japan store.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 08-28-2011, 05:41 PM
FredWest's Avatar
Founding Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: West Chester, PA
Posts: 3,026
Default Re: A little sharpening set anyone?

Stu, et al,

I have the Shapton glass & pro plus the Sigma Power Select. I think that most of what Stu said is spot on. The only place I differ is on the soaking. Anything under 5k in the Sigma or Chosera lines I soak. However, all of my Shaptons and my Sigma's or Chosera's I only spritz. I have been using them this way in the case of the Shaptons for over two years and the others from over a year to six months. I can also say that I have been praised for the edges by a professional plane maker and at This point I would be willing to put my edges up against anyone. I only say all that to point out that the method I was taught and use is working beautifully.

Right now about 70 percent of the time I use the Sigma 3,000 if I am just touching up a blade and then to the Sigma 6,000 & finally the Takenoko 8,000. If the blade is in worst shape than I expected or a new one I start with the Sigma 1,000. The Sigma 1,000 & 3,000 I keep soaking always making sure that I either change the water frequently and wash the stones off well after a flattening session. The other 30 percent of the time I will use the Shapton Pros. I have also experienced the blade that looks really sharp off of the Pro 5,000 stone but in fact is not. I can remedy this by either stepping up to the Sigma 6,000 or the Pro 8,000. I have no idea why this happens sometimes and not others but at this point I try and stay way from that stone.

Fred
__________________
Kapex, OF2200,Domino,TS 75, Trion PS 300, RO 150, RO 90, ETS 150/5, ETS 150/3, DTS 400, RS 400, LS 130, RS 2, Deltex 93, RAS 115, CT 33, CT 22, CT 26 CT Midi, OF 1400, MFK 700, C 12, LR 32 3, Shinex, MFT/3s, 3 MFT 1080s, WCR 1000, UG-KA-SET, 10 Sysports, 2 Walko's, Marcou's J20A, S20A, M12, S45, S55A, VSP 40, Brese 650-55J, Sauer & Steiner XSNo.4, SS Jointer, A5 Desert Ironwood and #4 Damascus, Knew Concepts 8 inch Fretsaw, Knew Concepts 5 inch Titanium Fretsaw, Hammer K3 48x48, Hammer A3 31
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 08-28-2011, 10:42 PM
AlaskaRanger's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Heart of the Alaska Range - on the Denali Highway
Posts: 526
Default Re: A little sharpening set anyone?

email sent to your "corporate" address, Schtoo,,,,
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 08-29-2011, 01:10 AM
Okami's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,726
Default Re: A little sharpening set anyone?

PM sent Stu

Thanks for the detailed comparison, I know You've done heaps of testing with most of the stones out there, so your comparisons hold some weight... as does Freds, he's got more irons to sharpen than You can imagine

Last edited by Okami; 08-29-2011 at 01:15 AM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 08-29-2011, 02:23 AM
joraft's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: San Fernando Valley (SoCal)
Posts: 6,575
Default Re: A little sharpening set anyone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Okami View Post

... he's got more irons to sharpen than you can imagine
But alas, still only two hands.

.
__________________
John
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 08-31-2011, 01:44 AM
Okami's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,726
Default Re: A little sharpening set anyone?

This set is pretty good timing for me, as I discovered yesterday while sharpening a plane iron, my #1000 Shapton M5 is starting to wear through.
I've had the stone a couple of years, but haven't used it "full time"..


You can see the little specks of white starting to show
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 08-31-2011, 02:59 AM
Poto's Avatar
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 9,000
Default Re: A little sharpening set anyone?

Curious how unevenly it's wearing through, Okamisan. I'd imagine that it would come out evenly all over, rather than in patches.
__________________
I don't have as many Festools as Fred. Or Marcou's, or Brese's, or Lie-Nielsen's, or Lee Valley's, or Blue Spruce's, or Harold and Saxon's, or...
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 08-31-2011, 03:12 AM
Okami's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,726
Default Re: A little sharpening set anyone?

probably more to do with my rough 'n' ready style, than anything wrong with the stone matrix
it's always kept flat with silicone carbide grit on a block of stone
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 08-31-2011, 05:06 AM
Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Kagawa, Japan.
Posts: 74
Default Re: A little sharpening set anyone?

I'd keep that tile handy once the stone is completely kaput. Great base to beef up the Pro stones.

Or, flatten it out and stick an Atoma sheet on it, some other grit. #1200 for flattening out chisel and plane iron backs?

Now, if you will excuse me I need to get back to work. Got a LOT of things to get done this afternoon...

Stu.
__________________
The Tools from Japan blog and Tools from Japan store.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 09-01-2011, 02:54 AM
Okami's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,726
Default Re: A little sharpening set anyone?

Oops, there goes another Shapton
Did I mention.. I go through a lot of stones!
That #1000 was lucky just to make it that far
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:34 AM.