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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 04-22-2011, 01:00 AM
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Default Re: Shinex is coming- Shinex is coming

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Originally Posted by Corwin View Post
So, let me get this straight... You are telling us that in the past you had paid others to do the polishing and now that you are older, you have to do it yourself. Well, at least you are finding it enjoyable.




(you have to know Seinfeld to fully appreciate the above link)
That is correct. Actually, the same for woodworking -- I just didn't have the time to ENJOY doing it. Now I spend hours on things that don't even count. :sdrool:
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 04-22-2011, 05:34 AM
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Default Re: Shinex is coming- Shinex is coming

I've heard really good things about Meguiar's professional auto detailing line of polishing products. Supposed to be great stuff.

On the other hand...

Although we do use their plastic window cleaner on Black Magic's ports (thanks for the hint there, Leaky. ), Meguiar's couldn't pay me to use their products on my gelcoat. I don't know if this is as big a deal with paint / clear coat finishes as it is with gelcoat, but Meguiar's marine formulations (and many of their consumer grade auto formulations) are loaded with silicone. They'll make a boat shiny in a hurry, but it won't actually be polished. So the gelcoat oxidation damage accelerates, until the owner decides it's time to have the hull painted. Which turns out to be an expensive disaster, since the gelcoat is permeated with silicone.

Of course, Meguiar's isn't the ONLY manufacturer whose products contain silicone - lots of manufacturers use it, and in fact they actually market that like it's a GOOD thing. My real issue with Meguiar's is that they don't explicitly list silicone as an ingredient in their products that contain it. Worse, they don't provide any notice when they decide to change their formulations. ScratchX, for example, used to be reliably silicone free - until a couple of years ago when suddenly one day it wasn't.

Anyway, thanks to my irritation with Meguiar's, I use Presta products for machine compounding and polishing the boat (and 3M products for a few small areas that need to be done by hand). The Presta Chroma polish is particularly gratifying for obsessive compulsive admirals... the abrasive breaks down into a glaze as it's worked. Very nice stuff.

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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 04-22-2011, 03:07 PM
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Default Re: Shinex is coming- Shinex is coming

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Originally Posted by hasslefactor View Post
I've heard really good things about Meguiar's professional auto detailing line of polishing products. Supposed to be great stuff.

On the other hand...

Although we do use their plastic window cleaner on Black Magic's ports (thanks for the hint there, Leaky. ), Meguiar's couldn't pay me to use their products on my gelcoat. I don't know if this is as big a deal with paint / clear coat finishes as it is with gelcoat, but Meguiar's marine formulations (and many of their consumer grade auto formulations) are loaded with silicone. They'll make a boat shiny in a hurry, but it won't actually be polished. So the gelcoat oxidation damage accelerates, until the owner decides it's time to have the hull painted. Which turns out to be an expensive disaster, since the gelcoat is permeated with silicone.

Of course, Meguiar's isn't the ONLY manufacturer whose products contain silicone - lots of manufacturers use it, and in fact they actually market that like it's a GOOD thing. My real issue with Meguiar's is that they don't explicitly list silicone as an ingredient in their products that contain it. Worse, they don't provide any notice when they decide to change their formulations. ScratchX, for example, used to be reliably silicone free - until a couple of years ago when suddenly one day it wasn't.

Anyway, thanks to my irritation with Meguiar's, I use Presta products for machine compounding and polishing the boat (and 3M products for a few small areas that need to be done by hand). The Presta Chroma polish is particularly gratifying for obsessive compulsive admirals... the abrasive breaks down into a glaze as it's worked. Very nice stuff.

Yes, hidden silicone in any type of finishing product is really wrong. It SHOULD be on the label, not some secret ingredient that a painter or worker finds out about the hard way several years later. I don't blame you a bit for quickly dropping any product from any maker that treats its customers that way. Furniture polishes are often no better. It's hidden among them too.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 04-22-2011, 03:44 PM
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Default Re: Shinex is coming- Shinex is coming

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Originally Posted by Leakyroof View Post

Yes, hidden silicone in any type of finishing product is really wrong. It SHOULD be on the label, not some secret ingredient that a painter or worker finds out about the hard way several years later. I don't blame you a bit for quickly dropping any product from any maker that treats its customers that way. Furniture polishes are often no better. It's hidden among them too.
We live in a world where effortless, instant gratification is popular. Silicone provides a great shine with little effort, so it sells products.


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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 04-22-2011, 04:38 PM
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Default Re: Shinex is coming- Shinex is coming

So do all of Meguiar's products have silicone? Just their polishes? Waxes?
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 04-22-2011, 05:05 PM
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Default Re: Shinex is coming- Shinex is coming

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Originally Posted by RONWEN View Post

So do all of Meguiar's products have silicone? Just their polishes? Waxes?
I think most automotive paint care products contain silicone these days.

An interesting blurb from Meguiar's:

Are products that contain silicone bad for my car's finish?

No. In fact, automotive paints worldwide contain silicone as an ingredient to help the paint to spray and flow more smoothly.

Most of the concerns people have about silicones and products that contain silicones stem from the problems associated with them in the early 1950's. Back then, 40 and 50 years ago, if the surface wasn’t properly prepared, residual silicones on the surface or in the shop environment, could cause surface adhesion problems. The most common among them is a defect referred to Fish Eyes in the paint.

Fish Eyes are a small, circular craters that appear in the finish where the paint piles up in a circle surrounding a point on the surface that contains some type of contaminant that creates high surface tension, usually some type of wax, grease or silicone. The reason freshly sprayed paint does this is because contaminants like wax and silicone tend to create high surface tension and do not allow the freshly applied paint to stick or adhere properly. Instead of laying down flat over the top of these contaminants, the paint moves away from these contaminants, forming a ring around them that has the visual appearance of what is historically described as a "fish eye".

Knowledge of chemistry, as well as most other technologies have evolved and grown substantially since the 1950's (just look at modern cars and personal computers as two very visible, common examples of how technology has progressed). The problems painters encountered 50 years ago are more easily addressed with today's modern paint prepping chemicals, shop environments, paint additives, and most importantly, education. Back in the 1950's, there were no formal training programs available for young men and women entering the automotive repair industry. Most of the time, a person would start out at the bottom, sweeping and cleaning up, and slowly move up the ladder through knowledge gained by on-the-job training. Today there are hundreds of certified schools that specialize in formal education for the automotive industry. This includes paint manufacturers, who provide in-depth training for anyone who uses their paint systems.

Most professionals in the refinishing industry understand that a majority of the paintwork they do, day-in and day-out, is on cars that have been waxed using products that contain both wax and silicone.

Professionals in the body shop industry always perform the necessary preparation work required to insure that "fish eyes" are not a problem. This includes using special degreasers, wax and silicone removers that effectively remove these substances from the surface or chemically alter their molecular structure in such a way to insure they pose no problems. If there is ever any question or doubt about the surface to which new paint is going to be applied, painters will include a Fish Eye Eliminator into the paint, which insures a finish free from fish eyes. Interestingly enough, Fish Eye Eliminator is typically a special silicone additive.

There are many kinds of silicones available for use in car care products, the one thing all silicones have in common is they are completely inert. This means they do not react in either a negative or a positive manner with any substance they come into contact with, including your car's paint.

Silicones are primarily used to modify or enhance a specific characteristic of another ingredient in a Meguiar's formula. If the silicones Meguiar's relies on didn't offer some type of positive benefit to the product, or the end-user and the results they are trying to achieve, Meguiar's wouldn't include them in their formulas.

The fear and confusion surrounding this single ingredient, silicone, is an ongoing problem people run into when they get caught up in the hype and misinformation spread from person to person, generation to generation and now-a-days, on the internet, which exaggerates the problems surrounding the use of silicones in car care products.

There are some sources that even go so far to say that silicones are harmful to paint. This is not only dishonest; it calls into question the credibility of that resource and any and all claims they make. Silicone is inert. It cannot harm paint, let alone anything else it is formulated into, or sitting on top of, especially in the form of a coating of wax.



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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 04-22-2011, 05:30 PM
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Default Re: Shinex is coming- Shinex is coming

Another opinion:

The Role Silicone Plays in Car Care Products
Published by Mike Phillips

One of the most frequent comments I hear when I go to car club meetings and events is that silicone is bad for your car. It’s a common myth, from years gone by, that the mere presence of silicone near a car will cause the paint to shrivel up and fall off or prevent it from ever being repainted. These myths are false, but the latter is based on factual problems painters once experienced. The fact is that all modern automotive paints contain silicone as an ingredient to help the paint to spray and flow smoothly.

Most of the concerns people have about silicones and products that contain silicones stem from the days when lacquers were used as the primary car finish. Back then, if the surface wasn't properly prepared, residual silicones on the bodywork or in the shop environment would cause paint defects. The most common silicone induced problem is a small defect referred to as “fish eyes”.

Fish eyes are small craters that form in the paint finish. Fish eye defects form where the paint piles up in a circle surrounding a point on the surface that contains a contaminant. The reason freshly sprayed paint does this is because contaminants like wax and silicone tend to create high surface tension and do not allow the paint to properly flow and self-level. Instead of laying down flat, paint moves away from these ingredients, forming a ring around them that has the visual appearance of what is historically described as a fish eye. In severe cases, where the painter does not properly prepare the bodywork for painting, contamination from wax, oils and silicones can cause paint adhesion problems.

Knowledge of paint and other automotive finishes have evolved and grown substantially since the 1950's. The problems painters encountered 50 years ago are more easily addressed with today's modern paint formulas and prepping chemicals. Likewise, the modern paint facility has evolved into a high-tech environment (primarily due to environmental regulations), and paint additives help overcome common flaws. More importantly, modern paint technicians are educated in their craft. Until the 1970’s, there were very few formal training programs available for young men and women entering the automotive repair industry. Today there are certified schools that specialize in formal education for the automotive industry. This includes paint manufacturers, who provide in-depth training for anyone who uses their paint systems.

All professional body shops understand that the cars they repair have been maintained using products that contain waxes, oils and silicone. For this reason, all professional repair facilities perform the necessary preparation work required to insure that the paintwork is free of contaminates before they begin their work. In so doing, the dreaded "fish eyes" will not be a problem. The preparation work includes using special degreasers and silicone removers that effectively remove these substances from the surface or chemically alter their molecular structure in such a way to insure they pose no problems. If there is ever any question or doubt about the surface to which new paint is going to be applied, painters will use a paint additive to eliminate fish eyes. Interestingly enough, the paint additive that eliminates fish eyes is typically a special silicone additive.

SILICONES USED IN CAR CARE PRODUCTS
There are many kinds of silicones available for use in car care products. They vary in form and functionality. Car care chemists select the best performing silicones to create a desired finish for each kind of car surface.

Silicones are primarily used to modify or enhance a specific characteristic of another ingredient in a polish, wax or protectant formula. Silicones are not used for any characteristic they offer in and of themselves. There are some functions in a car care formula that only silicone can produce or no other ingredient can perform better.

One of the most commonly used features of silicone is its ability to lubricate (improve slip). The use of some types of silicone in a formula acts to make the product easier to apply and buff off. In this way, silicone lubrication helps reduce surface marring (scratches and swirl marks) induced from wiping with bad toweling or applicators. That's a benefit to you.

Chemists also use silicones to create water-in-oil emulsions, reduce emulsion particle size, to stabilize emulsions, and to improve spreading and coverage of wax products. Most modern silicone formulas are water soluble (no oil or petroleum), and are completely inert. The best way to describe most forms of silicone is to think of it as a man-made wax ester. Silicone is created by the reaction generated when you combine fatty acids with polydimethylsiloxane (or other derivatives of the compound).

The fear and confusion surrounding this single ingredient, silicone, is an ongoing problem. Some small car care chemical manufactures create fear, uncertainty and doubt in people’s minds by claiming their products contain “no harmful silicones,” suggesting that silicone is harmful to the paint. This product hype and misinformation spread from person to person, generation to generation, and now-a-days on the internet, exaggerates the myth that silicones in car care products are harmful. The fact is that the largest and most respected names in the paint and body shop industry, which include 3M and Meguiar’s, use silicones in their car care products to make them better.

The facts are indisputable. Silicone is part of the protective system in paint and helps the paint look better and last longer. Silicone cannot harm paint, let alone anything else it is formulated into, or sitting on top of, especially in the form of a coating of wax. Without properly blended silicones, waxes would be difficult to apply and would not have the high gloss and radiance we enjoy.



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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 04-22-2011, 05:38 PM
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Default Re: Shinex is coming- Shinex is coming

And yet another opinion:


Car Accessories Magazine

The biggest advantage of traditional waxes is their low cost. Certain wax products are formulated with 40% Carnauba wax with Beeswax and a UV protectant. They don't use fillers like talc which doesn't last, and leaves white streaks and dust. These formulas are much longer-lasting and result in a better and harder shine.


Silicones generally penetrate the pores of the painted surface and endure many times longer than traditional waxes. They are easy to apply and result in a much more shiny look. However, silicone products also penetrate the primer and the metal making it difficult to apply any new paint. This is due to the fact that the silicone has eroded the surface adherance and when the new paint is applied, air bubbles may appear at the surface. This major drawback makes it difficult to justify the use of silicones. Conclusion : silicones should not fall into your list of the best car waxes.

If you are prepared to spend more money to use the best car wax, you may want to consider higher end products. They are 4 to 5 times the cost of a traditional wax but they offer a much longer lasting protection (two years and more). One such product is a polish system that uses high quality, durable acrylic elements. The formula is a very expensive and high quality. It is designed to fill the pores of the paint with a unique resin (plasticizer). This forms a barrier which prevents penetration of any other elements. It also contains an acrylic which when fully cured, is a hard durable, anti-static,transparent, protective layer and gloss enhancer.


It should be noted that these folks are marketing this "silicone free" product:




.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 04-22-2011, 08:48 PM
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Default Re: Shinex is coming- Shinex is coming

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Originally Posted by RONWEN View Post
So do all of Meguiar's products have silicone? Just their polishes? Waxes?
Random comments, no particular order:
  • My understanding is that Meguiars PROFESSIONAL line (tan bottles) of compounding pastes, polishes, glazes, etc. are (A) truly all-around excellent products, and (B) contain no silicone. That information is a couple of years old, however, and I haven't checked into it since.

  • Meguiars MARINE and CONSUMER products lines are vastly inferior to their pro products.

  • We used Meguiars NXT Tech Wax on Black Magic when I did all that gelcoat work two years ago. At that time, it was silicone free - I don't know if it still is. The reason I chose it is because the black hull gets VERY hot, and NXT Tech Wax was supposed to stand up to extreme heat and reasonable washing. It was a big disappointment. I don't think it lasted a month. Last year we went back to Collinite Insulator Wax - that stuff is GREAT, and it lasts all season. I don't know any other wax that tolerates heat as well.

  • I know next to nothing about auto paint/clear coat formulations or how they are affected by oxidation. So I have no opinion whether silicone is or is not a problem per se for auto finishes.

  • The primary reason silicone is a HUGE problem for gelcoat is the same reason that it's a problem for wood - they're both porous. Trying to get the stuff off of gelcoat is almost impossible, because it's not really "on" the gelcoat so much as "in" it. With the result that the more you try to sand or rub it off, the deeper it penetrates. An Awlgrip paint job is outrageously expensive under ideal conditions - add surprise silicone removal to the job and the cost becomes stroke inducing.

  • A secondary reason silicone, penetrol, and similar additives are a problem (and I suspect this applies equally to auto finishes) is precisely BECAUSE they make the surface shiny. When you're polishing a surface, the only way to tell when you're done is to check the shine. Some polishing products (3M's for example) contain lubricants that cause premature shine. This is a little annoying, but not a big issue - you just spritz it with a little alcohol, wipe it off, and check your progress. However, if there's silicone in the product, the shine is there immediately and can't be wiped off - you just have to guess whether or not the surface is actually polished. Frankly, the stuff is so slippery, I don't know if it's even POSSIBLE to achieve a true polished surface.

  • The most likely products to contain silicone (and similar) additives are the so-called "all-in-one" or "one-step" cleaners. Those are the products that claim to polish and clean (sometimes even wax, too!!!) at the same time. Marine product manufacturers are the absolute worst offenders, in my view. They make millions of dollars selling this garbage (always at premium prices!) to boat owners who want to believe the hype and have no clue how bad it is for their boats.

  • Of course, I'm also a big believer in people taking responsibility for the consequences of their own decisions and actions. If somebody decides it's a good idea to swab their hull with silicone, they really should have no one but themselves to blame when that decision ultimately costs them an arm and a leg or substantially devalues their boat.

  • That being said.... the biggest issue for me BY FAR is non-disclosure. I have no tolerance for manufacturers who make it impossible for people to reach an informed decision about a product without spending an inordinate amount of time doing detective work first.

  • Case in point: The only way I found out that Meguiars ScratchX contains silicone was through relentless Googling... which eventually led me to a forum for (of all things) professional luthiers. Turns out ScratchX had a long-standing following among fine instrument makers and restorers, because it worked beautifully and was silicone free. Then one day Meguiars just changed the formula - but not the label, thereby giving their customers the "freedom" to learn some very expensive lessons the hard way.

  • One last comment. Apparently Meguiars WILL actually confirm what's in their products if you call them and ask. But seriously... who wants to do that every time they buy a new container of a previously reliable product? And why should anybody have to? What a ridiculous waste of time.

And now, time to go outside and see how much work I can get done on the boat! It's gonna be a bit of a contest. In one corner, we have the weather... 43 degrees and raining, with an easterly breeze of about 14 knots. In the other corner... a tarp, a small space heater (inside the cabin, don't worry ), and a determined Hasslefactor. I wonder which side will concede first.

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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 04-22-2011, 08:54 PM
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Default Re: Shinex is coming- Shinex is coming

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Originally Posted by hasslefactor View Post
And now, time to go outside and see how much work I can get done on the boat! It's gonna be a bit of a contest. In one corner, we have the weather... 43 degrees and raining, with an easterly breeze of about 14 knots. In the other corner... a tarp, a small space heater (inside the cabin, don't worry ), and a determined Hasslefactor. I wonder which side will concede first.

I've got to go with the weather on that one. Hasslefactor could outlast continental drift...
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