talkFestool  

Go Back   talkFestool > Projects, Methods, and Techniques > Finishing

Finishing How you make your work look great!

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #71 (permalink)  
Old 07-20-2010, 11:33 PM
AceHoleInOne's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Detroit MI.
Posts: 12
Default Re: Waterborne

This is how I roll:

I use compressed air to spray. Have an old “Sears” brand 2 cylinder (cast iron) smallish 20 gal compressor (garage sale special I rebuilt).

My spray guns are gravity feed HVLP…well…um…on the cheap, cheap, cheap side from the box store and recently purchased another cheap gun from Woodcraft.

But I have to tell you the Woodriver gun from Woodcraft did have some quality issues with a fluid leak from around the needle and nozzle and an extremely sloppy (side to side) trigger pull. Woodcraft did send me a replacement gun and I can report the new gun is of much better quality and sprays nice. I also have a little touch-up gun for tight places. Never a problem, with these guns.

For air filtration of
water and oil vapor, I use the M60 (toilet paper filter) inline and a desiccant at the spray gun.


Spraying non-thinned water-based finishes using 1.5 needle and nozzle, is no problem whatsoever. Been spraying water-based topcoats for several years now and don’t think twice about it.

I have tried other water-based products, but am most comfortable using General Finishes stains and topcoats. I have nothing but good things to say about General Finishes. I love the Enduro Clear Poly, Enduro lacquer and the High Performance topcoats. They flow out nice and just a joy to spray.

Did I mention I like General Finishes...



-Ace-
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #72 (permalink)  
Old 07-21-2010, 12:10 AM
joraft's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: San Fernando Valley (SoCal)
Posts: 6,575
Default Re: Waterborne

Quote:
Originally Posted by ColinWhite View Post

With an increase of finishing work I just purchased one of these to replace my old set up ...
Very nice rig, Colin. That one was on my short list too.
__________________
John
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #73 (permalink)  
Old 07-21-2010, 02:06 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Bourbonnais
Posts: 66
Default Re: Waterborne

Thanks John I did not read many negatives about it and came recommended by a couple of people I really trust. It also didn't hurt to have my employer buy it for me as a replacement for my hard working but worn out set up .
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #74 (permalink)  
Old 07-21-2010, 04:06 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: 41°N 79°W One of the Thirteen Original Colonies of the United States of America
Posts: 4,820
Default Re: Waterborne

Quote:
Originally Posted by joraft View Post
Ron, now that I have the equipment, I thought it would be fun to give spraying it myself a try. And, from what I've found out, Sherwin-Williams has some pretty rugged equipment paint.

However, since you posted a link to a powder coater only a few blocks from my shop (how'd you do that?), there's no harm in going over there to talk to them. I'm working on the cut patterns right now, it shouldn't be long before I get out the hacksaw.
.
When automotive wheel & bumper guard manufacturers (as an example) start using the Sherwin Williams paints instead of powder coatings we'll know they have something better. I've used the SW two part systems on machines but they fall short of powder coating. You won't want to tear your grinder down periodically every few months to refinish in your showcase workshop.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #75 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2010, 01:59 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: 41°N 79°W One of the Thirteen Original Colonies of the United States of America
Posts: 4,820
Default Re: Waterborne

Quote:
Originally Posted by AceHoleInOne View Post

Spraying non-thinned water-based finishes using 1.5 needle and nozzle, is no problem whatsoever. Been spraying water-based topcoats for several years now and don’t think twice about it.

I have tried other water-based products, but am most comfortable using General Finishes stains and topcoats. I have nothing but good things to say about General Finishes. I love the Enduro Clear Poly, Enduro lacquer and the High Performance topcoats. They flow out nice and just a joy to spray.

Did I mention I like General Finishes...



-Ace-
I'm a bit perplexed on the waterborne finishes -- My whole purpose in wanting (or thinking I want) an HVLP spray system is to use it in conjunction with waterborne lacquers. I stopped at the Sherwin Williams store today (I'm VERY rural with very few choices) and found that in my state you basically need to become a registered user before they will sell me the spray waterborne finishes. That is all well & good, the process include the store manager visiting my (garage) shop to ensure that I have an indoor facility to apply (spray) finishes. They only sell their waterborne lacquer in 5 gal. containers @ $39.00 per gallon. Still OK but the catch 22 for me as an amateur is that using an HVLP system is more efficient saving >50% of the lacquer in overspray. The catch is the shelf life is one (1) year. As an amateur using the much more efficient HVLP system I think that 5 gallons could be about a 2-3 year supply.
The other point of question is since the product isn't oil based why would the state be concerned about my spraying it outdoors? (not that I intend to). He did give me a copy of the MSDS sheet, perhaps if I read it I'll understand the state's concern.

Last edited by RONWEN; 07-23-2010 at 02:11 AM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #76 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2010, 07:15 AM
Okami's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,725
Default Re: Waterborne

Quote:
Originally Posted by RONWEN View Post
Eiji, Dan, Okamisan, Others,
Does anyone have any new insight on experiences with spray gun equipment and finishes since we last went around the table (pun intended) on this thread??? I still haven't bought an outfit but I continue to gather information.
Okami, How do you like your system by now?
Dan, same question?
Eiji???

Thanks.
Hi Ron

The 4 stage Capspray I use is the only spray system I've used, so I can't compare with anything else out there. It's very quiet and seems to have all the power I need for spraying waterborne.
I dont have a spray area (my place is too small) I've thought about rigging up some kind of curtain rail to the ceiling and using that with a plastic sheet to create a barrier to hold in the overspray and keep the dust out.
Without a barrier, so far, it's gone quite well

I'm still in the process of learning the skills, but I can see the benefits of using waterborne over a hand rubbed, oil finish. The waterborne finishes hold up much, much better to water and heat. The downside for me is, IMHO, you can never beat the look of hand rubbed oil finish on furniture, it's simply a much more natural look and feel. Film finishes (waterborne varnish, lacquer) build up on the surface, giving the wood a little distant feel and look. It's not bad I just like the look of hand rubbed oil more

I'm kind of in the same boat as You regarding not having access to many companies offering waterborne finishes.
I've checked all the domestic companies locally, and havent been impressed with what they are offering. I got in touch with Target Coatings and ordered some of their EM2000 waterborne alkyd varnish. They were a bit slow in responding to me and proccessing my order but I finally recieved my order. the EM2000 seems very forgiving for a beginner like myself. I've even applied it with a sponge pad on some smaller pieces, that I thought wasn't worth setting up for spraying. It levels out well. It has a tinge of amber/yellow to it, but doesnt pop the grain close to what oil finishes can...this means something needs to be applied to pop the grain first. If that is an oil based product, it needs to dry fully before applying the waterborne. This kind of slows it all down, unless you use a shelac, which is alcohol based.

That's about all I know so far
Cheers!
Okami:tigersmile:

Last edited by Okami; 07-23-2010 at 07:18 AM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #77 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2010, 12:36 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: 41°N 79°W One of the Thirteen Original Colonies of the United States of America
Posts: 4,820
Default Re: Waterborne

Thanks.
I guess that I'll need to order something off of the net (in a reasonable quantity). What do you apply before the EM2000 to pop the grain? I would have thought the EM2000 being water based (or waterborne) would pop it. The General Finishes Topcoat also sounds good & something that I could buy in smaller quantities.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #78 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2010, 04:34 PM
AceHoleInOne's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Detroit MI.
Posts: 12
Default Re: Waterborne

Ronwen:

I have found that some finish distributors only sell to you if you have a bonafide “business” account. However, the Mohawk distributor by me, will allow “walk-ins” to purchase certain of their products without a business account.

Yes, same thing here with Sherwin Williams only selling the 5 “ers“ it’s too bad.

HVLP and over-spray…please don’t overly concern yourself with less over-spray saving you money. I would say the mathematics of spraying 55 gals a week, yeah = savings, but for the hobby woodworker? There is a certain amount of waste in just about every facet of woodworking, even finishing. Think about how much latex paint gets washed down the drain out of every paint roller, brush and pad for every room painted, its the price of poker. But yes, yes, yes to an HVLP gun, its way more efficient.

The cost of water-based finishes, yeah are salty, but if you buy a gallon of lacquer, say $20.00 and a gal of reducer is $15.00 to $20.00, so about $40.00. Your savings really would kick in on 2 gal of lacquer to 1 gal of reducer or whatever the case may be as to the ratio of lacquer to reducer and gun cleaning.

I’m a member of the Target coatings forum, yes there is lots of discussion of chemistry and compatibility and shelf life. But think about all the other retail blend of water-based products on the market and sitting on the shelf at the woodworking stores and big box stores. I wonder how they do it? I just can’t imagine them clearing the shelves checking dates removing product that’s 1 year old. I think its just a matter of how it is stored and will probably last for years, but that is just me.

Gee the paint store guy will come to your shop? Is he also the local “Fire Marshal” hehehehehe?

Hope this helps.

-Ace-


Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #79 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2010, 08:35 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: 41°N 79°W One of the Thirteen Original Colonies of the United States of America
Posts: 4,820
Default Re: Waterborne

Thanks Ace, yes that is very helpful information. I'd be interested in reading on the Target Coatings forum (Link?). I might learn enough to be dangerous -- things like "what is the difference between water based and waterborne?".

Yeah, the state requiring on-site inspections of shops before registering buyers/users. I can't wait for health care on-site inspections.
I have been (falsely?) under the impression that water based/waterborne coatings are more inert and "green" than nasty old oil based coatings that I can go to big box, buy by the drum and spray my lawn with...
Thanks for the information, sooner or much later it will all start to soak into my mushy brain.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #80 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2010, 09:21 PM
AceHoleInOne's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Detroit MI.
Posts: 12
Default Re: Waterborne

Oh gawd.... water-based or water-borne....I don't get all that... I just spray it. How about less stinky

Let all the chemistry talkers work that out... hehehehehehe

-Ace-

Last edited by AceHoleInOne; 07-23-2010 at 09:22 PM. Reason: spelling
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:55 AM.