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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 09-29-2009, 03:52 AM
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Default Re: Waterborne

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Originally Posted by DanClark View Post
With a PPS starter kit, it looks like I can get the 6008 for a couple bucks under $300. By getting this combo, I can try it with my current compressor. If it works, that's great. If not, I can sell the gun, get a new PPS adapter, and use the PPS cups and lids on another gun. This looks like the lowest cost, lowest risk option for getting into HVLP.

Regards,
Dan.
Maybe a little more expensive, but I can offer you another alternative -- I have a Fuji SE4 Package #5 that I purchased from Phelps Refinishing that is still unused and still in the box. I paid $648.00, and can let it go for something less... This looked like a great deal back then, but I really don't know if I'll ever get to use it.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 09-29-2009, 04:28 AM
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Default Re: Waterborne

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Originally Posted by Corwin View Post
Maybe a little more expensive, but I can offer you another alternative -- I have a Fuji SE4 Package #5 that I purchased from Phelps Refinishing that is still unused and still in the box. I paid $648.00, and can let it go for something less... This looked like a great deal back then, but I really don't know if I'll ever get to use it.
Corwin,

I'm definitely interested. But what is an SE4? I can't find any information on it. Also, what gun comes with it?

Thanks,

Dan.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 09-29-2009, 04:46 AM
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Default Re: Waterborne

Dan,

The SE4 was a discontinued model -- If I'm not mistaken, the Q4 made it obsolete as it was a little quieter. The package #5 consists of Turbine, No Hook XT Spray Gun, Hi-Flex Hose, Maintenance Kit (Extra Turbine Filter and Cup Parts Kit), 3 Pack Worthy Strainers, Mini 3 Cup Set and 6' Flexible Whip Hose.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 09-29-2009, 05:06 AM
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Default Re: Waterborne

Corwin,

Is the no hook gun a bleeder or non-bleeder design?

Thanks,

Dan.
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Old 09-29-2009, 05:16 AM
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Default Re: Waterborne

Dan,

You will definately be happier with a compressor driven gun vs the turbine.

Also the asturo is designed for spraying waterbased finishes and has many more holes in the air cap to help atomize the waterbase. the reason the waterbase finishes need more atomization than solvent based finishes is because water has much more surface tension than the solvents used in solvent based finishes. pic of the air cap
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 09-29-2009, 03:14 PM
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Default Re: Waterborne

Corwin, Eiji,

First, Corwin... I very much appreciate your offer. But now I'm leaning towards a compressor driven, conversion gun. Mostly it's up-front cost.

Second, Eiji... Your 6008 option (but with a bottom mounted cup) is looking more attractive. My up-front cost is low and even if I don't like the gun, I can sell it and still reuse the PPS cups, liners, and caps. It's a nice low-risk option.

That said, I have one more question - in looking at different sites, I was able to pick up a little more info on the 6008/XSeries II. It looks like some sites list this as an HVLP gun and one site lists it as a conventional gun. This confuses me. So...

How is the overspray with your gun? How well/fast does it lay down the finish? Similar to your Fuji?

Thanks,

Dan.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 09-29-2009, 04:38 PM
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Default Re: Waterborne

Dan,

It is an HVLP gun. It has similar overspray as the fuji I had and sold. It seems to lay a good finish about 30 -50% faster than the fuji though. I would have to say that it is easily twice the gun the fuji is in the ease of use and how nice it sprays.

Dan you should really think about the remote pressure pot set up. not having a cup on the gun is so nice. I can shoot with the gun up side down and it is sooo much more manuverable. You can also use liners in the pot or just plastic bags is you are shooting waterbase.

Check out the thread at sawmillcreek in the finishers section.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 09-29-2009, 06:15 PM
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Default Re: Waterborne

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Originally Posted by EijiFuller View Post
Dan,

It is an HVLP gun. It has similar overspray as the fuji I had and sold. It seems to lay a good finish about 30 -50% faster than the fuji though. I would have to say that it is easily twice the gun the fuji is in the ease of use and how nice it sprays.

Dan you should really think about the remote pressure pot set up. not having a cup on the gun is so nice. I can shoot with the gun up side down and it is sooo much more manuverable. You can also use liners in the pot or just plastic bags is you are shooting waterbase.

Check out the thread at sawmillcreek in the finishers section.
Eiji,

I hear you about the pressure pot. I've considered them. If I expected to do longer, production runs, I'd definitely get one.

Actually one of the reasons I'm looking at the PPS system in general and the mini-cup in particular is that it allows you to get into tighter spaces from odd angles including upside down. I doubt that it's as good as using a pressure pot, but hopefully it will be good enough. And, if I don't like the PPS, getting the 6008 will let me add a pressure pot later.

Thanks,

Dan.
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Old 09-29-2009, 07:19 PM
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Default Re: Waterborne

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Originally Posted by DanClark View Post
Eiji,

I hear you about the pressure pot. I've considered them. If I expected to do longer, production runs, I'd definitely get one.

Actually one of the reasons I'm looking at the PPS system in general and the mini-cup in particular is that it allows you to get into tighter spaces from odd angles including upside down. I doubt that it's as good as using a pressure pot, but hopefully it will be good enough. And, if I don't like the PPS, getting the 6008 will let me add a pressure pot later.

Thanks,

Dan.
Dan/Eiji,
I'm learning as I go here & using much of Eiji's practical sense and recommendations.

The early HVLP systems were strictly turbine guns to achieve the <10psi at the tip to accomplish much less overspray & more paint on the surface.
Manufacturers then came up with conversion guns and they now (from what I read) equal the turbine gun systems.
What isn't clear to me is Eiji's pressure pot system -- if the regulator is set at 5psi at the pot why is the setting at the gun ~30psi?
Also, Eiji I (like Dan) am wondering if a better choice (for me at least) would be a gun mounted cup? Is there a lot of messing around cleaning out the pressure pot and also the feed hose?
I also need to sort out for my purpose (occasional spray finishing my projects) the choice between the gravity feed and bottom pots?

Last edited by RONWEN; 09-29-2009 at 07:22 PM.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 09-29-2009, 09:05 PM
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Default Re: Waterborne

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Originally Posted by RONWEN View Post
Dan/Eiji,
I'm learning as I go here & using much of Eiji's practical sense and recommendations.

The early HVLP systems were strictly turbine guns to achieve the <10psi at the tip to accomplish much less overspray & more paint on the surface.
Manufacturers then came up with conversion guns and they now (from what I read) equal the turbine gun systems.
What isn't clear to me is Eiji's pressure pot system -- if the regulator is set at 5psi at the pot why is the setting at the gun ~30psi?
Also, Eiji I (like Dan) am wondering if a better choice (for me at least) would be a gun mounted cup? Is there a lot of messing around cleaning out the pressure pot and also the feed hose?
I also need to sort out for my purpose (occasional spray finishing my projects) the choice between the gravity feed and bottom pots?
Ron,

Sorting out all of this finishing information and comparing it to my needs has been a major headache for me too. Generally, I've found two kinds of users - finishing noobs like me searching for good, basic information and old hands who have years of finishing experience. While having the experienced finishers provide information is great, many of them have been using the same tools for years and some of their tools info is a bit out of date.

With Eiji, we have a rare opportunity - a seriously fine woodworking craftsman who is working through the process of finding the right finishing tools and who is willing to share his experiences. Like you, I much appreciate Eiji sharing his knowledge and experience in the finishing arts and his learning process.

Like most things, part of the problem is not finding the right answers, it's putting it all together. Here's a summary mind-dump of what I've picked up in the last several months of reading and researching finishing and finishing tools:
  • Spray finishing tools have changed in the last few years. This means that some of the old "wisdom" no longer applies. Some changes:
    • Old technology - what was available:
      • Gravity, unpressurized cups above a conventional (non-HVLP) spray gun.
      • Siphon feed, unpressurized cups under a conventional spray guns.
      • Off-gun pressure pots with conventional spray gun.
      • Large, conventional (15+ CFM) compressors were used for the conventional spray guns.
      • HVLP turbine systems.
    • Newer technology - new technology added to the old technology:
      • Pressurized, above-the-gun cups.
      • Pressurized, below-the-gun cups.
      • Smaller compressors can power conversion guns
      • HVLP available for any style of gun/system.
      • Liner systems like PPS available from 3M, Asturo, and Devillbis give you the ability to spray in any position and provide easy, fast cleanup.
  • A lot of spray finishing info is aimed at folks who refinish automobiles (and similar) and not woodworkers. And much of the time it's difficult to determine which market a spraying tool is aimed at.
  • Almost all automobile finishers prefer gravity cups, while woodworkers prefer pressurized spraying because it lays down the finish faster.
  • Automobile finishers spray for long periods of time in one stretch, while woodworkers spray in more random, short runs. This impacts which is the best spray gun, cup, and compressors for your needs.
What this means to me is that some old wisdom may no longer apply. For example, "A gravity gun gives you a better finish." Or, "A gravity cup (implying above-the-gun) cup won't let you spray upside down." So, based on this information, and especially from Eiji's comments and your comments, my current conclusions are:
  • With a good HVLP conversion gun, you can get finish quality that is equal or superior to a good HVLP turbine gun.
  • You can get traditional HVLP turbine gun benefits - like less overspray and reduced material usage - from a good HVLP conversion gun.
  • Currently, the primary benefit of turbine HVLP is ultimate portability for work-site use. For shop use, where you have a compressor, there are limited or no benefits of a turbine HVLP.
  • Given that we are finishing wood, it is feasible to use a smaller compressor (maybe 4+ CFM) and still get decent productivity. (Not high-volume productivity maybe, but at still decent.)
  • You can add another tank to your current small compressor for spray finishing. (This looks like a good option to me.)
  • You can connect two small compressors in parallel to improve CFM. (Don't ask me for details on how to do this.)
  • Using a sealed liner system like PPS, DeKups, Asturo, etc., you can spray from any position (upside down, sideways,etc.) with a pressurized or unpressurized above-the-gun, below-the-gun, or off the gun cup or pot.
One subtlety of this is that, while I believe the above is true, it's not necessarily true all the time, for all people, or in all conditions. For example, Asturo makes a liner system: Asturo Liner. BUT, it looks like it only works for above the gun gravity cups and NOT pressurized cups (above or below the gun).

I hope this information is useful. And that it doesn't sound too confusing, because this has been a confusing journey for me. I think I'm pretty close to the end of my search, but hey... There's still tomorrow. I might change my mind again.

Regards,

Dan.
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