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Bridge City Tool Works For the past twenty-five years we have been producing innovative and impeccably crafted heirloom tools for serious woodworkers and collectors worldwide. Made in America, all of our tools are produced in limited numbers and with minimal care should continue to inspire your children's children. I believe the look, feel and accuracy of each Bridge City tool will always influence you to do your best work. Quality is contagious. Regards, John Economaki President & Founder

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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 04-17-2010, 11:24 PM
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Default Re: The Bridge City CT-17 tool announcement!

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Originally Posted by wnagle View Post
I can only afford the plastic prototype at this time IF I get the founders club discount. I wonder...Does it come with an A2 plastic blade? Or should I specify O-2 plastic?

Wayne,

PLEASE, if you are going whole hog, I say get the M2 plastic.

Micheal, et al,

I have some M2 blades for my S55A Marcou and it has two characteristics that I love. The first is that the edge lasts forever or at least a good long time. I have used the same blade through a tremendous amount of southern yellow pine, red oak and cherry without having to touch it other than remove some gum. The second thing is when I finally decided to sharpen it, I had no more trouble than I have with A2. Philip is of the opinion and I believe that he is correct that if the heat treatment is done correctly then M2, D2, A2, etc. are all easy to sharpen. I have had the misfortune to run into some M2 that may not have been heat treated correctly and it is much harder to sharpen.

So, there you have my completely non-scientific, anecdotal take on M2.

Fred
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 04-17-2010, 11:27 PM
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Default Re: The Bridge City CT-17 tool announcement!

Fred,

You are right...I don't know what I was thinking...
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 04-17-2010, 11:29 PM
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Default Re: The Bridge City CT-17 tool announcement!

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Fred,

You are right...I don't know what I was thinking...

Wayne,

No problem buddy, I am there to catch you if you fall down like this.

Fred
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old 04-18-2010, 01:12 AM
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Default Re: The Bridge City CT-17 tool announcement!

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Originally Posted by joraft View Post
O-1 steel is a high carbon steel which gives razor sharp edges but dulls quicker than A2 Steel. O-1, like A2 has a 1% carbon content It has 1.35% manganese,.5% chromium,.35% silicon, and.5% tungsten.

A2 steel is almost a stainless steel. At (5%) it does not have quite enough chromium. It has 1% carbon,.6% Manganese, 1% molybdenum, and.2% Vanadium. It is not prone to rust. A2 steel is popular for blades because of its toughness. The toughness of the edge of the A2 steel is improved by cryogenically treating the blades at -320 degrees Fahrenheit. A2 steel is much harder than 0-1 carbon steel and although more difficult to sharpen, it keeps an edge longer. It performs best somewhere between 30 and 35 degrees. The problem with A2 steel is that it tends to fracture more easily when the bevel is ground less than 30 degrees. A2 is tougher than D2 and M2, but has less wear resistance.

D2 steel is a premium tool steel. With 1.5% carbon content It is better at holding an edge than less exotic stainless steels. D2 has a fairly high chromium content (11.5%) and is sometimes referred to as a “semi-stainless”. It is a well respected, air hardened, high carbon, high chromium tool steel. It has 1% molybdenum, and.9% vanadium. It possesses extremely high wear resistance properties. D2 steel produces one of the toughest blades you can get.

M2 Steel is a fine-grained molybdenum/tungsten high-speed tool steel. It has.85% carbon,.25% manganese, 4.2% chromium,.30% silicon, 5% molybdenum, 6.35% tungsten, and 1.9% vanadium. It is slightly tougher and more wear resistant than D2, however, M2 rusts more easily.
So then Joraft, the practical question is that if given all four (4) alloy blades is four separate BLOCK PLANES you will be able to label them after a fair test use? Want to bet??? :p
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old 04-18-2010, 03:33 PM
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Default Re: The Bridge City CT-17 tool announcement!

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Originally Posted by RONWEN View Post

So then Joraft, the practical question is that if given all four (4) alloy blades is four separate BLOCK PLANES you will be able to label them after a fair test use? Want to bet??? :p
Ron, that's an interesting question, I've never had the opportunity to do such a test. I merely listed the commonly known characteristics of each steel (as requested by Roger). However, I do believe that those characteristics would become apparent during extended use.

On the other hand, you seem to believe that the type of steel used in the blade will make no difference. That certainly makes you easy to please.
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old 04-18-2010, 04:05 PM
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Default Re: The Bridge City CT-17 tool announcement!

I have D2 and M2, as A2 and O1 blades.

There has been an increasing demand here in Oz for steel that lasts a reasonable period of time when used on our hard, abrasive woods. So some of us began experimenting with D2.

Of course many have been using D2 mortice chisels from Ray Iles and M2 blades from Mujingfang. Some have been using M2 from HNT Gordon. My Jack/Fore plane has a 5/16" thick D2 blade! Now that is a blade!!!

Just two points I wish to make.

The first is that sharpening strategies are increasingly important with the more abrasive-resistant steels. In my book this means working with microbevels (I hollow grind blades) so as to reduce the amount of steel to be worked. This makes honing most steels a better proposition. So far I can happily use my Shaptons. ....... however soon I am getting some blades made from CPM-3V, and this can really only be honed on diamond paste.

In conversation with Philip, going back a few years now, I recall his saying that D2 needs to be heat treated to a softer state than most steels are prepared today - that is the secret to honing these more abrasion resistant steels.

The second point is that I use mainly A2 steel. I find it gets as sharp as O1, holds an edge longer, and I have no difficulty honing it. And for those that are consumed with the notion that it fractures under 30 degrees, understand that I have been using it on a shooting board plane (LV LA Jack) with a 25 degree bevel for some years now .. and without any problems at all! That is really putting A2 to the test, which it passed with flying colours.

Regards from Perth

Derek
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old 04-18-2010, 05:46 PM
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Default Re: The Bridge City CT-17 tool announcement!

.
John, thanks for the detailed "explanation".

Derek, thanks for the interpretation!

.
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old 04-18-2010, 05:52 PM
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Default Re: The Bridge City CT-17 tool announcement!

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Originally Posted by derekcohen View Post
I have D2 and M2, as A2 and O1 blades.

There has been an increasing demand here in Oz for steel that lasts a reasonable period of time when used on our hard, abrasive woods. So some of us began experimenting with D2.

Of course many have been using D2 mortice chisels from Ray Iles and M2 blades from Mujingfang. Some have been using M2 from HNT Gordon. My Jack/Fore plane has a 5/16" thick D2 blade! Now that is a blade!!!

Just two points I wish to make.

The first is that sharpening strategies are increasingly important with the more abrasive-resistant steels. In my book this means working with microbevels (I hollow grind blades) so as to reduce the amount of steel to be worked. This makes honing most steels a better proposition. So far I can happily use my Shaptons. ....... however soon I am getting some blades made from CPM-3V, and this can really only be honed on diamond paste.

In conversation with Philip, going back a few years now, I recall his saying that D2 needs to be heat treated to a softer state than most steels are prepared today - that is the secret to honing these more abrasion resistant steels.

The second point is that I use mainly A2 steel. I find it gets as sharp as O1, holds an edge longer, and I have no difficulty honing it. And for those that are consumed with the notion that it fractures under 30 degrees, understand that I have been using it on a shooting board plane (LV LA Jack) with a 25 degree bevel for some years now .. and without any problems at all! That is really putting A2 to the test, which it passed with flying colours.

Regards from Perth

Derek
Alright, now, I made two points, Derek made two points John made four and Ron was asking about four. So the most incredible situation that has arisen here is that 12 points were made AND each set of points was at a minimum two. So, WOW, we are now looking at each set being divisible by two.

Obviously tongue in cheek but I think the main thing here is that we have a lot of anecdotal evidence as well as some scientific descriptions of each of the four different steels. Derek mentioned a fifth which I will now have to look into. Thanks Derek. The thing is, I am not Philip who works with different steels every day. Nor do I have Derek's expertise so all I can rely on is my own usage. Within my own world, I have hundreds of hours using A2 and O1. I also have probably close to a hundred hours on both D2 and M2. So, Ron and everyone else, even though I have some usage, I can not tell you by looking at the steels, which is which but after many hours I can pretty much tell you which is which and after extensive usage, I can a bit better tell you which is which only because there does appear to be differences in how long each holds an edge. But there is a caveat in that O1 and A2 seem to fairly close and the same for D2 and M2.

So, all in all, I could absolutely be blowing smoke and just think this is happening only because I want to think it. However, and this is the final caveat, I do believe my anecdotal evidence. Okay, anyone confused?????? Other than me, I mean.

Fred
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  #59 (permalink)  
Old 04-18-2010, 06:12 PM
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Default Re: The Bridge City CT-17 tool announcement!

Fred, thanks for clearing things up.
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  #60 (permalink)  
Old 04-18-2010, 06:15 PM
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Default Re: The Bridge City CT-17 tool announcement!

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Fred, thanks for clearing things up.

Mr. Raft,

It was truly, the very least I could do, so you are quite welcome.

Fred
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